Alright, REAL TALK...!

KaenasterKaenaster Member
edited August 30 in Feedback

This game is probably one of the best ones I've played in a while, which has a really innovative system of Strategy and allout impulses. Using your gut feeling, or even a mathematical setup, makes it much easier to win certain engages with certain abilities.

However some things need to change. I have a few complains which I will splice up, it won't take long to read it honestly, just hear me out.

THE UI

The UI is great in many ways, but for example, in the begining screen before the game is even starting, you are suppose to see what composition the enemy is doing, let's just say, it's really hard to see it.
I have learned how to see them, but I am certain that it's a thing that needs a fix rather then a lookover.

What kind of Solution would fix this?: Some people actually find the UI ok. And I don't blame them, however, making the UI Adjustable is probably one of the best steps towards 'perfect sight' as you can get. If you have less UI in the way, that means you can see more on the screen. Sometimes I've been caught offguard by different abilities just because I am unable to see them properly due to the sheer size of it(Ingame).

Some Units...

The balance issues are far and wide, and I think, honestly, that White is the only COLOR that really feel like you are WORKING for your win.
The main issue I have is with the Sandstinger. No, not the Damage health or anything like that, it's the upgrade to its dash.
It makes the unit so insanely mobile that it's better then most, if not all, teir 2 units (Other then Devilkin, 'cause holy crap they're good).

The one way to fix that imbalance in power spike is to make the upgrade increase in cost by 50. Since it's a very powerful tool, I think it should be a little more expensive as a followup.

Speaking of units, let's talk heroes.
Vex is a really good character to play due to the Spitfires, but his ultimate is REALLY underwhelming.
What I mean by that is that you will never hit the ability. Namely, the ultimate. It's cool, it does one hell of a lot of damage, but it's clearly useless. Not only does it have an insane cast time, but it moves REALLY slowly aswell. It's easier to dodge then Fireballs. Which says a lot.

I would mention the Seige units, but I have no clue on how to fix them at all, A lot of damage. That's pretty much it.
Oh, also, all AOE's are Overtuned. Apocalytes is the only one that feels impactful as hell when you use(And dare I say, satisfying?)

Upgrades

Let's not play dumb. The upgrades are shit.
I'm not talking about the unit specific ones, i'm talking about the actual UPGRADES for your units.
The reason they are shit, is because the attack upgrades are mathematicly stronger then the defense ones, which makes sense, but at the same time, it's completely useless for Reds and Whites to get Defense in the first place! Their units are too squishy and don't benefit from them at all.
Defense on the other hand has another impact on the game, by being a lot stronger in a different way(Which is rather hypocritical).

Defense for Blue and Green is like trying to nuke planet Earth itself to try and make it surrender. And that is not really good. Not to mention that Green and Blue both benefit insanely from every single upgrade, whilst Red and White does not.
No suggestions on how to fix it, it's just a food for thought.
(PS Ability damage is MUCH better then anything else)

THE ****ING CREEP BLOCKING

I did it in caps because it is actually starting to make me freak the hell out.
The creep block is charming for the most part, it makes it very strategic to move in some cases.
But for the love of god, at least add nudging.
It's extremely easy for someone to missuse their abilities (Vela trying to snipe something) to then have yourself running back into Bioshard Creeps, only to get stuck like an imbecile with no way out, even if they are the squishiest targets in the game right now (Looking at you Sandstinger).

Neutral minions have no reason (IN MY OPINION) to have blocking capabilities, I don't mind players not being able to be nudged away, for real. Even if it frustrates me.
But the ammount of times i've died because of some stupid ****ing bioshard minion, is so often that it's getting really boring and dull, stupid and gross.
Fix it. ASAP.
I don't know how, but just do it. It makes the game, which is already intense as hell, more intense for no reason other then 'Am I going to get stuck now whilst farming?'.

That is all I have for now, And I hope that you guys (Namely Artillery) see and acknowledge the issues and the like.
I'm not saying most of these things to be mean, I just love this game. More then any before it.
I'd hate to see newbies from other games come in and get discouraged due to a few mechanical features that are outright toxic to the game.(Creep Blocking is a big offender to this)

Comments

  • What I meant with the Attack ones is that it's useless for Red and White to get anything else other then those! I'm sorry for the typo.

  • XiniuXiniu Member

    Okay.

    Some Units...
    I feel like colors and units are pretty balanced right now, everything is viable, just green feels like it could use a t3 unit that does something on its own.

    THE ****ING CREEP BLOCKING

    I feel like everything about creep block is okay except for the critters at bot and top, they block wayyyy too much.

    Won't adress the rest because I either agree or am too tired. :^)

  • OK gonna try to quickly respond to a few things I disagree with re: balance because I think you're missing some important considerations/counterpoints. Here goes!

    1. Sandstingers are by no means an oppressive unit at any level I've played at. They are torn apart by boatloads of Tier 2 and Tier 1.5, such as

      • Howling Commandos
      • Lancers
      • Purifiers
      • Frostcallers
      • Shadows
      • Sabres
      • All the above counter them cleanly or force them to never, ever go near the frontlines, creating interesting counterplay. Their mobility is their reward for not being able to directly engage any of these units
      • In addition, Seedbots and Arctic Newts both match up very well against them at Tier 1
      • They ARE good at picking off squishy spellcasters in 1v1 situations. That's why if you're going squishy casters you don't get caught alone by Eris
    2. Vex's ult has long been considered the best in the game by a sizeable margin. It's slightly weaker now than it was before, especially with more Tier 1.5 options for people to use, but it's still one of the easiest ults to hit with and can win a huge battle outright. Don't fire it at things from max range, that's not what it's for!

      • Wrecks siege
      • Undodgeable from point blank range
      • Combos super well with Emberfiend or Apocalyte nukes - herd them into a corner and blow them up
      • Combos with every slow/snare in the game your team might have
      • Combos with teammates flanking
    3. Your math is off on upgrades

      • If getting defense on White/Red didn't help, then it wouldn't help Blue/Green to get attack vs them (i.e. if they're dying in one hit)
      • So we have relative parity, except as you said attack does somewhat more than defense
      • So even under your assumptions Red/White being more limited in upgrades shouldn't hurt them
      • Spell damage vs Attack damage is 100% dependent on faction and build and I think you're making a really big leap of logic without much support on this one

    I agree with a lot of your concerns about pathing/blocking and especially the UI. Good god I hope they make the team compositions actually visible and put them center screen because I don't have a magnifying glass next to my computer.

  • I never said NERF Sandstingers , I said nerf the upgrade.
    The unit is fine, the upgrade is just way too cheap for how much of a boost it gives the unit as a whole.

  • tedstertedster Member
    edited August 30

    I personally think it's very much in line with range increases on other basics. I could be convinced otherwise if a transcendent player came around and dominated with Sandstingers but I really don't think that's happening at the moment.

    Eris is a good hero and tends to get a lot of kills because running from her is a losing proposition but I have't felt she's unbalanced unless your opponents are making nothing but T1 (in which case she tends to wreck yeah)

    She is a hero that punishes teams badly for teching without bothering to have an early-mid game. Basically she's the zerg rush of heroes and if you don't bother preparing for that against her yeah she's gonna jam upgraded sandstingers down your throat and you will lose.

  • TreiskTreisk Member, Administrator

    Hey there!

    @Kaenaster said:
    This game is probably one of the best ones I've played in a while, which has a really innovative system of Strategy and allout impulses. Using your gut feeling, or even a mathematical setup, makes it much easier to win certain engages with certain abilities.

    <3 Thanks for saying so! Glad you're enjoying the game! :D

    The UI is great in many ways, but for example, in the begining screen before the game is even starting, you are suppose to see what composition the enemy is doing, let's just say, it's really hard to see it.

    I have learned how to see them, but I am certain that it's a thing that needs a fix rather then a lookover.

    What kind of Solution would fix this?: Some people actually find the UI ok. And I don't blame them, however, making the UI Adjustable is probably one of the best steps towards 'perfect sight' as you can get. If you have less UI in the way, that means you can see more on the screen. Sometimes I've been caught offguard by different abilities just because I am unable to see them properly due to the sheer size of it(Ingame).

    UI scaling is a longer-term desired feature, but there are some things we'd like to do to shore that up sooner than later. Also, one shorter-term feature we may be looking into soon for this specific case is allowing players to click the cards displayed at the top and see the full unit card. The general in-game case that UI scale would solve is probably not something we'll be able to do soon, but would like to eventually do.

    The main issue I have is with the Sandstinger. No, not the Damage health or anything like that, it's the upgrade to its dash.
    It makes the unit so insanely mobile that it's better then most, if not all, teir 2 units (Other then Devilkin, 'cause holy crap they're good).

    The one way to fix that imbalance in power spike is to make the upgrade increase in cost by 50. Since it's a very powerful tool, I think it should be a little more expensive as a followup.

    Double-Dash is definitely a very potent upgrade and could probably stand to see a cost increase. Will investigate!

    Speaking of units, let's talk heroes.
    Vex is a really good character to play due to the Spitfires, but his ultimate is REALLY underwhelming.
    What I mean by that is that you will never hit the ability. Namely, the ultimate. It's cool, it does one hell of a lot of damage, but it's clearly useless. Not only does it have an insane cast time, but it moves REALLY slowly aswell. It's easier to dodge then Fireballs. Which says a lot.

    This one's interesting, because, for newer players (especially those new to the genre), this ult is wicked powerful. But, to your point, experienced players will find it pretty easy to dodge. The best way to get value out of it right now is to either checkmate someone with it, or to follow up some AOE CC with it. That said, we may investigate the speed of this at some point (at the expense of the group of players that already find it difficult to deal with).

    Oh, also, all AOE's are Overtuned. Apocalytes is the only one that feels impactful as hell when you use(And dare I say, satisfying?)

    We've got some balance adjustments lined up for a handful of AOEs, likely beginning with Heat Wave (Emberfiend) and Destructive Prophecy (Apocalyte).

    Upgrades

    Let's not play dumb. The upgrades are shit.
    I'm not talking about the unit specific ones, i'm talking about the actual UPGRADES for your units.
    The reason they are shit, is because the attack upgrades are mathematicly stronger then the defense ones, which makes sense, but at the same time, it's completely useless for Reds and Whites to get Defense in the first place! Their units are too squishy and don't benefit from them at all.
    Defense on the other hand has another impact on the game, by being a lot stronger in a different way(Which is rather hypocritical).

    Defense for Blue and Green is like trying to nuke planet Earth itself to try and make it surrender. And that is not really good. Not to mention that Green and Blue both benefit insanely from every single upgrade, whilst Red and White does not.

    This has been on our radar for a while now; defensive upgrades don't scale very well on most white and red units because of their low health values. Right now, all they really serve to do is extend some unit-loss breakpoints (for example: +4 AP Trebuchets vs +0 MR Purifiers will oneshot them, but +1 MR prevents the oneshot). That said, it's something we'd like to improve down the line.

    THE ****ING CREEP BLOCKING

    We're beginning some tests that allow more flexible pathing around critters, and haven't decided yet whether to port that behavior to creeps yet. If the tests are successful, you'll see these changes in-game fairly soon.

    That is all I have for now, And I hope that you guys (Namely Artillery) see and acknowledge the issues and the like.
    I'm not saying most of these things to be mean, I just love this game. More then any before it.
    I'd hate to see newbies from other games come in and get discouraged due to a few mechanical features that are outright toxic to the game.(Creep Blocking is a big offender to this)

    <3 <3 <3! Thanks for playing, and for the post!

  • @Treisk If sandstinger upgrade was to get changed (which I'm not sure is necessary, but I don't have the data to back it) I would suggest nerfing the upgrade itself rather than changing the cost.

    The symmetry on the cost of Basic Unit unique upgrades is a good and sensible thing. It allows basic units to "improve" at the same rate and makes it easy to plan build orders, regardless of hero choice, if you're focusing on your basic unit.

    I wouldn't want to see that symmetry broken without a very good reason, is all.

  • SirSir Member
    edited August 31

    @tedster said:
    Treisk If sandstinger upgrade was to get changed (which I'm not sure is necessary, but I don't have the data to back it) I would suggest nerfing the upgrade itself rather than changing the cost.

    The symmetry on the cost of Basic Unit unique upgrades is a good and sensible thing. It allows basic units to "improve" at the same rate and makes it easy to plan build orders, regardless of hero choice, if you're focusing on your basic unit.

    I wouldn't want to see that symmetry broken without a very good reason, is all.

    Totally agree, I don't want to see the elegant design torn apart due to balance reasons. I love the little things that make the game so beautiful; energy cost equals supply consumption, every unit has one and only one unique upgrade and low tier units have maximum one ability, heroes have the same number of abilities, keybinds for each faction are consistent, upgrade costs are symmetric and linearly increase their cost and research time based on tiers, etc.

    It makes the game all that much intuitive and lessens the barrier of entry and the burden of knowledge. Also, it makes it so much easier to switch factions and doesn't force players to specialize as much as games as Starcraft or Warcraft do.

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