Community Titan Discussion

TokOwa

Community Titan Discussion

Dear Community of Atlas Testers and Developers,

Lately we have seen a focus on figuring out an engaging and fun titan mechanic. Within the community there has been a lot of good discussion, especially in the discord server. The purpose of this thread is to try and have a place where we can put down our thoughts and have them be permanently accessible. It would also be helpful to know if the different sentiments and assumptions that are held by community members are shared by the developers.

A few words on the conduct of the discussion.

• There is no need to reiterate that certain iterations have been bad\stupid\failures etc. Testing is testing, and when something goes wrong, and the developers are usually the quickest to realise that something is not working.
• Let us instead try and be constructive and logical in criticisms. Find out what exactly we are looking for as players, explain why certain iterations did not achieve what we were looking for.
• This is not to say that the 'feelings' in gameplay are irrelevant, but I think there is value to pursuing the root causes of those feelings, and, why and how the game design facilitates those feelings.

These are more suggestions than rules, so feel free to debate and discuss however you'd like! My opinions will follow as soon as I get them written.

tedster

I'm going to try to break down my thoughts further in a big post but for now here's my entry level talking points.

Capture Mechanics vs. Titan Mechanics

I actually find all 3 methods of capturing Titans interesting mechanically and from a gameplay standpoint. I've had fun fighting over Titans regardless of how they spawn. There are pros and cons to each method (some more than others, I think)

I personally think the Titan mechanics are a bigger issue than the capture method. For example, if a single Titan wasn't enough to start the inevitable Titan-Defense-Chain where you never leave your base despite the enemy being nowhere near it, killing a tanky, stally army only to have them get the Titan might not be an actual issue.

I think if Titans functioned differently it would help smooth over some of the issues with capture mechanics, which I think all have potential to work

RNG-based, slow gem spawns

1. Seem to favor ranged, hit-and-run armies too much
   
   
   • Random spawn locations far from the fountain make sniping gems easy
   • Longer spawn/capture times give fast ranged armies time to veer off and flank/take objectives
2. Melee is mostly reduced to flanking roles/support at the start
3. Putting 2 heroes in a lane early seems very bad
   
   
   • The opponent can stop trying to get gems and just snipe them, reducing capture speed by about half
   • The opponent gets the empty lane for free
   • Thus they capture Titan 1 in half the time, then can rotate both heroes to contest the 2v1ed lane
   • They also get resources faster, making the subsequent fight over center slightly easier
   • Very best case if you have 2 heroes in 1 lane is to come out even - doesn't seem worth it
4. Longer spawn times do give more time to try to sneak in alternate objectives, which is interesting

Capture zones

First off, let me talk quickly about how these games tend to go, then I'll discuss the mode:

1. Tanky army set up on top of the Titan
   
   
   • Ranged armies have to fall back while fighting so the tanky army can do this if it wants
2. All players arrive at a Titan spawn and start fighting (maybe 1-2 heroes are off contesting other titans)
3. The tanky army stays on top of the Titan no matter what
   
   
   • There's not really a way for an opposing tanky army to smash forward and do the same until the fight has been mostly won
4. The tanky army mostly loses the fight on average because it is focused on standing on top of the Capture point
5. Titan spawns. Tanky army leaves (possibly in shambles)
6. Team whose army won the fight must defend against Titan. But their numbers are reduced and it takes a while to do regardless
7. Team that won the Titan runs off to take Titan 2 while rebuilding a cheap tanky army
8. By the time the first Titan is dead they are set up, have rebuild cheap tanky units, and are halfway to capping the Titan or more
9. Defending army tries to contest Titan but by now it's too far along to realistically win against a tanky army just trying to stall

10. Repeat for the rest of the game

11. This mode seems to overwhelmingly favor tanky armies

    • Most tank heroes can't be dislodged in the first Titan wave at all
    • Many heroes have no hope of capping a Titan because they cannot sit on the capture point for any length of time
12. Favor armies designed to stall rather than win fights
13. Seems to promote extreme snowballing - comebacks feel rarer than ever
14. Armies get stuck defending endless Titan waves very early in a game - game is often decided at 12-15 minute mark
15. Winning battles does not feel like it contributes toward winning the game - getting to a Titan spawn first seems like the only thing that matters most of the time
16. Results in very unintuitive and frustrating games
17. Does provide opportunities for tanks to shine and alternate methods of gameplay - would be interesting to see in smaller doses
18. Many of the problems seem to stem from the Titan itself rather than the capture zone idea
    
    
    • If the Titan wasn't so overwhelming that you often can't recover from a single one in the midgame, killing the tanky army might actually matter
    • If it was realistically possible to contest the next Titan after losing the first one in a chain, this might not be a problem
19. How can Titans be made more fun or interesting and less an inevitability?

Short-range, short-duration gem spawns

1. Feel the most balanced so far
2. Feel less restrictive than cap zones but more than long-duration spawns
3. Don't seem to favor range/melee so much that it's an obvious issue
4. Do seem to penalize leaving the lane more than other 2 modes
5. Feels structurally less interesting than the longer gem spawns as it narrows field of play and play options somewhat
6. Makes putting 2 heroes in a lane less restrictive than long gem spawns

The issue may be with Titans rather than capture mode

1. Fighting over Titans, for the most part, feels very fun
2. Once a Titan is spawned, the fun often stops
   
   
   • Defending against a Titan is often either trivial (very early) or hopeless (mid-lategame when you are stuck in base too long to contest further objectives)
   • Losing Titan chains is very unpleasant and can happen even when you win battles/have superior armies
3. Winning a Titan doesn't feel particularly fun either
   
   
   • Most common followup - send Titan at enemy and then PvE unopposed for several minutes/the rest of the game
   • Fighting behind Titans can be fun - but there's little incentive to do this most of the time, and you're mostly just stalling for the Titan
4. Losing to a wave of Titans that you're spending every resource trying to kill while enemy is all the way across the map feels very frustrating and unintuitive
   
   
   • Enemy stops having to take any risks and you have no chance to try to steal a win because you can never leave base

Capture zones might work if Titan without army support wasn't so devastating and non-interactive

1. I don't think anything is intrinsically wrong with capture zones (except they are so small)
2. It's the incredible power of a solo Titan that makes losing the fight but winning the Titan such a huge victory
3. If Titans represent the idea of "permanent advantage" in a MOBA (Gold, XP, Items), is there a way to make that mechanic more interactive and less absolute?

Some ideas that would make solo Titans less destructive

1. Titans don't get shot by towers, but have lowish HP (and maybe attack at longer range)
   
   
   • Can still kill bases solo if ignored, but armies are required to tank for them if you want to bust through a defending army
2. Titans despawn after killing 1 building (and maybe can't be controlled)
   
   
   • Can mitigate Titan damage through number of towers in a lane, for example
   • Willing to lose 1 tower? Ignore that Titan and get to the next spawn!
3. Titans do little on their own but give buffs to nearby armies
   
   
   • Help overcome defender's advantage for a time without just being wins
   • Require support making Titan chains less likely

These are just some thoughts I have on Titan mechanics vs. Capture Zone mechanics. Hope they are interesting to consider!

TokOwa

I really can't agree on your conclusions regarding the Titans because it hinges on one argument. Namely that the existence of an opposing titan means that your hands are tied and you have to use all your forces killing it. While it is the case that sometimes that happens and it certainly happens to some extent in every match, it does not happen for a 100% of a match, and therefore it can't be the sole descriptor of the course of the game in the current iterations. In other words, I think you bring a logical view of something that could happen, and something that is likely to happen, but to me it doesn't accurately reflect my experiences. The data doesn't really align with your description.

We are probably also biased to a certain extent, and our differences might explain why our opinions differ. To me it seems that your feelings are to a greater extent fueled by the frustrations of losing while for me, it's the opposite. I'm very quick to ignore losses, blame myself\teammates, rather than the game, and as a result, I gain a lot of joy out of winning.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It is impersonal, and can be frustrating to defend. Mostly it's just very boring to defend. Hopefully the designers can find a solution that solves these issues. I'll do one section on Titan's themselves and a section on why I support the titanfight iteration.

Titans

Firstly, I want to discuss the features that I think are good for Titans and the features that are not good\necessary.

These are the good ones:

1. Titans are significant and benefit the victor: This has to be true. If the game doesn't give incentives to get the Titan, then they don't fulfill their purpose of creating a PvP situation.
2. Titans create space: Space, as in map presence. Titans create short-term space by either pinning any amount of armies to it and giving vision, or, create space by removing base structures which reduces the opponents space in the long-term. If nothing is lost for the defender, then nothing is gained by the victor. The loss of a titan should create a clear problem situation for the losing team, if it is a no-brainer, like sacrificing 1 turret for a titan, then that is almost like having a status quo, which makes it no longer a problem situation, and then it is no longer significant.
3. Titans gives unconventional heroes an opportunity to progress and end the game: Not all heroes are good at sieging. Not all heroes are good at straight up fights. Strong and independent Titans allow for the teams to win games through winning tactically and strategically throughout the map. There is already a 'forced' scenario when the teams contest the titans on equal grounds. Creating more forced situations through required sieging is going to punish mobile DPS heroes and reward conventionally strong sustained dps heroes, as well as heroes that are good defensively.

These are the bad\unecessary ones:

1. Titans are all or nothing: I don't think the fact that the winner often gets a fresh 100% hp Titan is necessary. This creates really bad snowball effects, and if we can solve this, then it also solves some of the issues that people have with Titans, I think. More on this below.
2. Buildings are too rewarding: Not much to say here, warp spires could be 48 or 51 energy, rather than 75. Killing them already gives a huge benefit by increasing reinforcement distance. The significance of the inner scrap buildings has been mitigated by the fact that most people are already swimming in scrap by the point you get to killing them. They could probably be tuned down as well.
3. Titan Scrap Rewards: If winning the titan skews the game too much, don't break the 'space creating' properties of the Titan by making it weaker. Reduce the scrap rewards of the Titan themselves so that winning the it doesn't provide both space and a huge tech advantage. Usually, the team winning the titan is also getting most jungle camps in the aftermath. So if they walk away with the scrap benefit initially, and also probably double that lead after getting the camps. Getting space and a reasonable tech advantage is a good enough reward.

This is what I don't like about your suggestions:

1. Flexibility: Your suggestions seem to aim at making Titans go from being Good by themselves and Great with push, to Bad\Worse by themselves and Good\Great with push. I touched on this above, but I want to reiterate because I think it is important. If I win a Titan, I want to have the flexibility. I don't want to be predictable in the next phase, by having to follow the Titan to actually get meaningful benefit from winning it. I want the benefit to be there as soon as I actually win the Titan. Sometimes I want to get more scrap to augment my lategame, sometimes I will come with the titan and mow down your base if you are out of position, and sometimes I will attack at another location. If I win the Titan, I should have the ball in my court, I should have the opportunity to orchestrate a situation that benefit me and my team composition, rather than having to go with the Titan to actually reap the rewards of winning it in the first place. I'm all for reducing the built in background macro rewards, but how the Titan themselves alter the map when they are active, I think that is an important pillar of the game. I also think it is one of the mechanics that open up for diverse compositions.

#TEAMtitanfight

So these are my thoughts on why Titanfight is pretty awesome.

1. Intuitive: Does not promote splitting armies. If I invest my army's time into a titanfight, I am rewarded accordingly. If my opponent is capturing a titan, I know that a big chunk of his army is there. Sole hero capturing a point while the army is somewhere else fighting or taking a bunch of camps, and this being one of the best way to play, is neither accessible or intuitive for a newer player.
2. Solves the all-or-nothing problem to some extent: Fiercely contesting is less of a financial sinkhole if you are rewarded with facing a weaker Titan after losing. It will feel like fighting was worth it even if you lost. In other words, good play reduces the space reduction of Titan's.
3. Uncontested Capture Times Vs. Contested Capture Times: With shorter uncontested capture times and longer contested capture times, as well as varied DPS of heroes, Titan's will likely to be staggered, which will promote a variety of strategies such as bursting down a titan, or rotate to contest newly spawned Titans. Sustain DPS heroes are also likely to benefit from synchronized titans while supportive and tank heroes would be better when titans are staggered, as they are better at securing the perimeter and space required to kill the titan without interference.
4. Shorter uncontested capture times is necessary: If it takes Hydros only 30-40 seconds longer to kill a titan than a Vex, then it's not as bad as if killing the Titan takes 2-3 minutes and Hydros takes 90-120 seconds longer to kill the titan. The point of varied DPS between heroes is still a big concern with titanfight, but I think that by increasing the proportion of time fighting and maneuvering, and reducing the time it actually takes to kill a Titan in order to capture it, you lower the proportion of the game where the lower dps is at a disadvantage.

For those who don't know what titanfight is, it is a gamemode where two titans spawn in each of the gemfountain areas, and you are killing the opponents one, in order to activate yours for pushing. It is similar to Battlefields of Eternity map in Heroes of the Storm.