Blue Units and Blueness. Aboodeeaboodie.
I've seen a lot of feedback on blue units and since I've played a majority of my games as blue I thought I would make a post consolidating some existing feedback along with my own perspective. I feel like playing as blue is a bit of a juggling act - a lot of clunky bowling pins and one flaming chainsaw that explodes and murders your hopes and dreams and also your wife and children. I think that it is good that blue has versatile options for supporting their team or themselves but it feels like there are too many things that demand constant attention for blue to be effective on the field compared to the other colors. I like where some units stand and I think others could use some tender loving.
Plated Warriors
I like the recent changes which made these units much more robust. They have utility well throughout the game as their plate allows them to soak damage from single target threats. They feel nice and tanky.
Shield Slugs
I like the active mitigation on this unit. I think it would benefit from a slight attack speed buff.
Frostcallers
I like this unit but I think the area of effect should be wider or perhaps its supply cap/cost lowered. A wider range would help cordon off more pathways which would give some more utility to this unit outside of area damage in fights.
Kingpins
I have a love/hate relationship with the kingpin. It is by far the best unit in blue's roster. It requires a lot of attention and micro. It is completely dependent on a neutral unit, the transport. I feel like when I have a transport with kingpins out that my control priority in the game has shifted. I feel like I should be devoting more of my APM to my transport than my hero or other army units. I have been in many situations where I leave my hero in the dust just to save that precious cargo. Priority-wise it feels wonky.
Losing a loaded transport feels bad because it is a large component of what makes blue feel relevant in the game. Day9 posted in the Hydros thread about how tanks and supports feel less fun/impactful when they do less damage. Losing a loaded transport combination is losing the feeling of being useful as blue.
I think that kingpins may need a change or an active ability so that they are less reliant on the transport. If I could test and implement my own changes maybe I would try a defensive or stasis mechanic: 'The kingpin retracts into his shell for X seconds taking 95% less damage from attacks. The kingpin may not move or attack during this time.'
I do love the unit though, and I love reaver/shuttle micro. I like that blue has an option that is high risk high reward. I think that blue is lacking in late game options so the problem may not necessarily lie with the kingpin/transport as much as there aren't any other comparable options.
Quadrapus
I love the utility this unit provides. The only thing I dislike is that when you are melee heavy it often paths/gets pushed forward into combat.
Shadows
I love shadows. Killing trebuchets and scouting and being sneaky feels so good. I think that tower true sight range is too large. It feels strange to get unstealthed from a tower on the highground that is off your screen. Maybe add a different true sight range for flying/ground units or reduce tower sight range altogether? I think being able to skulk into enemy territory to kill off stock crystals or camp gems should be possible. Maybe only have true sight on the front line towers so that once a tower is downed that lane will be vulnerable to infiltration?
I like tedster's post about true sight. I think there is too much of it in the game at the moment. True sight on sentinels really just shuts down shadow play. Any stealth unit is going to have a really hard time utilizing their stealth.
Ancient Ice Frogs
I like the stun on this unit but it costs way too much supply/resources for what it does. I think it needs to be tankier. I'd like to see another active, maybe steal the Aquadillo's cannonball and call it a hop. It would be cool to be invulnerable while moving the frog into a position where it can be more effective, as it is already vulnerable during its channel. I like the idea of using an active like the hop to keep the unit alive. Maybe add charges like the sand stinger blink so they can hop twice.
Aquadillos
I don't like this unit. I'm not sure what changes I would make to it. The tier 3 slot should have a bulky option, something that can tank for you or your army. What about a taunt mechanic? Redirected damage to a specific unit is something that most tanks are familiar with and I think it is a utility that could be interesting to see in Atlas. It feels good to use your actives to save things. I also think that Aquadillos tanking up and rolling around katamari damacy style could be pretty sweet. I don't know. I see an Aquadillo model and I think to myself that it should be capable of the type of rollout PTSD as this son of a 
Comments
Awesome post! I love reading posts like this, especially when you do such a good job of explaining your/hate with various units.
I've played a decent amount of Blue, and my thoughts line up pretty closely with yours on most of these units. I've voiced similar thoughts on Shadows, Kingpin/Transport, Frogs, and Quadrapus in various posts, so seeing that you've come to similar conclusions makes me feel like I'm not that far off. In particular the Quadrapus complaint has me nodding my head; while I now know Quadrapi were actually broken, my main complaint has consistently been how much they like to wander to the front of a battle and die. Giving them a bit more range on their abilities (and possibly giving them longer range on their attack so they stay in the back naturally) would help them play a more consistent role as a defensive unit without needing intense babysitting.
Aquadillo
I hadn't commented on the Aquadillo yet because I couldn't ever find places to work them in. Blue's basic tank units do a good enough job that I never thought "Man i need to spend a huge chunk of resources to get a tank!" and the cannonball didn't impress me the few times I've whipped it out in a fight. It doesn't feel like a tier-3 unit to me because it just doesn't have that "fear factor" that other T3 units have.
Tier 1.5 melee
I agree with your analysis on Blue's T1.5 melee. I really like both units, though there might be a little too much overlap so that one ends up being much better than another. That's my main worry as far as they are concerned - high level play is likely to figure that one out, and unless there's some way to use them situationally I'm not yet sure both will be needed.
Frostcallers
Frostcallers are a unit that seem OK but their AOE feels much too small (or the damage too slow). I find them difficult enough to protect and the effect minor enough that it's difficult to tell if they're actually helping me in an average fight. It's not really good for poking with so you really need to be engaging in a real fight to take advantage of the spell, but it's pretty tough to catch the enemy in it for very long because it's just not very big and the effect isn't that huge. I made Frostcallers a lot when I started playing but I've stopped making them at all at this point and don't think I've suffered for it - there's just other stuff I can do that feels stronger most of the time.
Kingpin/Transport
A final thought on the Kingpin: it would't feel so stressful if they weren't, as you mention, by far Blue's best unit, so you feel almost forced to go Kingpin/Transport in every game (or at least put them in your deck in case your team needs them). And the reason it's Blue's best unit, I think, is that it's really the only way Blue has to blow up an army - something every other faction can do fairly naturally with various unit combinations, but Blue really can't unless it goes a high-micro strat that requires a neutral unit to utilize.
It's just very hard for Blue to do something really swingy in a fight if it doesn't go Kingpins - Shadows CAN work if your opponent doesn't go detection, but if they do go detection (and most good teams do because Sentinels are so vital) they are a dead unit (plus Shadows can be somewhat countered with quick micro, and the Shadow player can't really re-counter that). Other than that... well, you can tank. And tank. And also tank.
@tedster
I had a couple paragraphs written about the quadrapus until I read the patch notes. I guess my blue experience has been somewhat skewed by that bug. What I had written originally is that it is difficult to use Intervention when retreating because you essentially sacrifice the quadrapus in the process. I suggested maybe dropping the channel and making it just a cast. I think it might still be worth testing. In many engagements I'll end up having to move my units anyway and the quadrapus is just sitting there channeling while my army reorganizes. Next thing you know he's stuck in a crab mosh pit in the front lines. He's a little flying dude. Maybe give him flyer status and nix the unit collision?
I think one of the biggest issues with blue and caster/tech units is that it is a constant battle of reorganizing army formation. I've taken to putting frontline and backline in separate control groups and I spend the majority of the game splitting them back up. Even then there are still around 30% of engagements where my units weren't optimally positioned. It only takes one little lapse and you've got your healers, quadrapus, and frostcallers tanking for your crabs.
I think at the end of the day there's at least half a dozen ways to improve the Quad, but I'm pretty sure we can agree that we think his biggest problems are that he's A.) Too hard to position properly to do his job and B.) Too hard to keep alive while doing so. I think before tweaking his abilities too much I'd love to see these two points addressed because he's really hard to use right now.
One of the biggest problem with defensive AOEs like that is that they operate on the assumption that you won't want to move your army, which is often a false assumption. That's why offensive AOE debuffs (which force the opponent to move their army instead) are typically safer and more consistent - if the opponent has to move their army to get out of your debuff, they've still been debuffed (by being forced to disengage or reposition). If you drop a channeled buff and have to pull back because your opponent aims an AOE nuke at the center of your buff, well, you just lost it, and you might have to lose the unit that is channeling.
I'm typically not a fan of channeled buff spells like that for that reason - they either have to be tremendously powerful or they are easy to counter, and you tend to lose your casters when they get countered for minimal gain. I still like the Quadrapus kit, but I think dropping the channel could help out a lot.
@tedster
MMmmm intervention is so delicous now. I think the channel might actually be necessary to balance the effect out. The drawback with this new patch is probably necessary. I agree that the defensive channel mechanic does feel clunky for the reasons you listed though.
I'm tempted to send one following each of my teammates' armies. I wasn't sure how the plate change would feel but its got a really nice triage feel to it now. I like it. I think this fix really helps blue feel a lot better. It doesn't change their late game or shadow issues but the transition from tier 1 to 2 feels great.
OK, so this is a conversation that's near and dear to me as I really want to make a Blue support role work within the game. In general, I agree with your opener - I feel like I CAN be awesome with Blue in its current state but it takes so much more work than other squads which can be effective in a more straightforward fashion. That being said, going through your list:
Plated Warriors
Not much to say here, I'm with you on this. Having Plate regen outside of combat was a game changer here.
Shield Slugs
Haven't used this enough to have a strong opinion, I feel like plated warriors generally work out better. Slugs may be better mid-to-late game where you can pop their ability when you see AoEs incoming (like on Apocs) to effectively negate it. Shit, I should really be working on that...
Frostcallers
I used to love Frostcallers, and to be fair I still do, but I feel their ability is little more than an annoyance when it gets cast. Personally I would love a stronger slow in exchange for even less damage but I do love the control/support game.
Kingpins
I agree with your sentiment regarding transporters. Without it, Kingpins are fantastic defensive units and have little place on the field. It's OK as a niche unit right now, but expanding its utility along the lines of what you describe is not something I'd be against.
Quadrapus
I have yet to make this work the way I'd like - during, oh, TW2 I think, I was bypassing the limitation of channeling Intervention (again, even though it wasn't working as intended lulz) by casting Plated on the Quad first. I feed @tedster on the offensive vs defensive AoE casting - when you cast one defensively, you're basically saying "I don't want to move out of here, so if you're going to AoE me, try targeting here!". That way it's a win-win for the opponent - either they land the damage (yes, at reduced #'s but in exchange for the guarantee of it landing) or you move out of the damage and negate the advantage you had by putting Intervention down.
There are times when it's useful - either defensively when you've already been rooted, or offensively when you're just TRYING to get a building down and won't be moving anyway where this comes into play. But again, since it's channeled...the opponent can just take the Quad out. It's definitely subpar, and while the healing addition to Plated was nice, I want to play with it s'more to see just what I think about it.
Shadows
The true sight change to all buildings has been a game changer in a lot of these ways - right now I mainly use these guys as more potent Frostcallers to slow enemy movement. Frankly, they do a good job that way!
Ancient Ice Frogs
I like ice frogs, but I do agree that the cost seems a bit high. My opinion used to be "but the freeze is so potent, your allies can do a ton of damage!", but why not do damage directly instead of just stopping them? (to clarify: by this I don't mean changing their abilities, I mean, why not pick a squad whose T3 unit does a ton of damage instead of setting up the POSSIBILITY to do damage?)
Aquadillos
This one hits me right in the feels. The Aquas used to be the cornerstone of my tanking setup. They were a perfect transition in the mid-to-late game when having a million Scuttlebros was not practical from a collision standpoint. Aquas were a nice answer to swarms of little units through Vindication. Even if we assume that Vindication was too powerful of an effect, the Aqua is so very ineffective as a tier 3 unit without it that they're not worth making. Vindication was also awesomely passive so maybe that was another reason the ability was cut, but they've lost the ability to HOLD THE LINE. Right now when one jumps at me, I just sort of shrug and go on doing whatever I was doing, making sure that the slow wasn't setting me up for an AoE. Consider this in comparison with other T3s where I'm legitimately concerned about their presence on the field and it's a pretty stark contrast.
I still would like to see some implementation along the lines of what I mentioned in the Hydros thread about an ability whose potency is higher on lower health units - I'm all for more work if there's risk vs reward, but circling back to your original point, it seems like more work just for the sake of being different.
One more comment!
Hydros diversity problems
Hydros starts with tanks. Pretty good tanks! But why are both Tier 1.5 units also fairly interchangeable tanks? This makes Hydros feel SUPER shoehorned into exactly one build for a large portion of the game. I feel that without a tier 1.5 ranged option Hydros will always be the least versatile hero since you know EXACTLY what you're fighting when you see him show his face.
Alder would maybe have similar problems but Seedbots are versatile enough units that can fill enough holes in a roster than it feels much less stark.
@SpideyCU
I think its worth mentioning I started playing in TW4 so my perspective comes from testing the most recent changes since then. What was vindication? You make it sound like a passive damage aura. Having a tier 3 unit that helps against swarms sounds dreamy.
I also would like frostcallers to have more of a use as a snare/zoning tool also. I don't think they do anything particularly well at the moment.
The ancient ice frog was the thing that originally drew me to Blue. That stun looks so good on paper. But you are right, for 13 supply on tier 3 with an upgrade it just doesn't do much compared to other options.
@tedster
I've stopped using slugs or plated warriors. This kind of goes back to the kingpin/transport discussion but I don't think you have the slots for them. I think Hydro's crabs are great cause they enable cutting those units. It would be nice to feel like I had options though. G52a2abf336384393a8a8526147c5b0d7 - I don't think you can stray far from that comp unless someone else takes over sentinel duty or you swap out shadows. But yeah, I think blue in general feels kind of shoehorned into kingpins and the builds that support them. If you see blue you should know to expect it at some point, and if you see something else... well, you don't really care.
@Foamborn
Vindication allowed the Aquadillo to get stacks of plated (up to a maximum of 20, I believe?) for each target he hit. Since he deals splash damage, it was great within mobs of tiny things and actually let him survive after jumping into the middle of them. You could even get an upgrade to increase the range of the splash damage, basically guaranteeing that if you jumped into the right spot you could keep getting a full stack of Plated between his (admittedly slow) swings. The Aqua didn't decimate the field but he was tough as nails which was exactly what I wanted.
I should probably update this post since the Quadrapus fix has changed so much. I feel like intervention enables more viable endgame strategies and compositions as blue.
Frostcallers
I'm still of the opinion that frostcallers need some kind of a buff. The problems we've discussed with unit mobility and channeling as a penalty hit these guys particularly hard. Positioning them within a melee army is a nightmare (+ crabs on Hydros). Intervention definitely helps their survivability though. I just don't think they do a lot to justify their cost. I would try increasing the slow percentage and/or area of effect. Ideally I would also balance the numbers around removing the channeling penalty (I'm not sure if this would be too strong, but I think it would be worth testing).
Kingpins
The quadrapus really helps keep the transporter alive. It feels like the hardest part about going kingpins now is getting them out, and I think that is how it should be. There is more to micro now (which is still hard to manage on top of your main army and other spells), but the micro has more of an effect.
I'm not sure if kingpins are currently overtuned. I think it is very dependent on team strategy/coordination in whether or not the kingpin player is allowed to tech. An early snipe on a transport shuts a blue player rushing kingpins down pretty hard. This means that ideally the blue player is rather passive until tier 2 unit upgrades, transport, and kingpins are finished. Alternatively, kingpins can come out later after a more stable transition but I think that by that time the enemy team should have effective counters out. Countering sentinel play is also very important to handling the kingpin player. I will not move my investment into an area I have no vision in.
I think the kingpin/transport combo feels a lot better now. I heard a dev talking about possibly reducing the unit cap to 3. I'm not sure if that would fix much. The real hero here is the quadrapus. I also think that it is harder for certain compositions to counter the air play. I think this is ok. The kingpin player is already spending four cards enabling the strategy - often sacrificing air counters themselves. I also think that other colors should have to take air counters into consideration when choosing their loadouts (not just against kingpins but sentinels too).
An example of unpunished Kingpin ramp (albeit against some newer players): G21aac2b788dd4e8daa2923f2ae929f0c
Also, around 17 minutes in this game I noticed something that should probably be changed. I guess there is a priority for the kingpin missile targets. I had set my kingpins to attack the stock crystal but then the missiles would prioritize enemies that were off screen. I'm all for siegepins but they felt kind of like (TRIGGER WARNING) swarm hosts that game. This works on gems also. I think that it should work the way it does, but maybe the priority system should have a range on it? I don't know, it seems like by changing that you could get behavior where the missile doesn't go where the player wants it to. In other words, the problem is that you can use certain things like gems and stock crystals to attack enemy units that are outside the kingpin's normal attack range.
Also, transports will continue to unload if you pick another unit up while its unloading. It makes retreating difficult because you have to wait for your transport to fully unload before picking everything back up and turning around.
Quadrapus
So hot right now. Intervention is so good. I think the penalties against the quadrapus might be too lenient. The channel is definitely deserved. I might even recommend lowering unit cap. Plated shell is probably my favorite spell in the game. It is a perfect flavor spell for the support role. It feels great give a unit a little more time or save it outright.
I think these guys feel way too important not to choose. Other blue units are too dependent on them.
The Intervention field needs a team color tinge to it.
Ancient Ice Frogs
The Quadrapus fix definitely enables these guys a bit more. The buff to wind up time is helpful also. I haven't done as much testing with these as I would like. I feel like there are a lot of builds/compositions to explore. That's a good thing.
Aquadillos
The Quadrapus definitely helps keep Aquadillos alive but I'd like for them to be tanky independent of them. I'm curious as to why vindication was removed.
Shield Slugs
I think blue is missing a versatile ranged/AA unit. I agree with Tedster's recent postings that a blue player feels forced towards choosing Ryme over Hydros solely because of the range/AA provided by Glacial Rangers. It feels bad picking slugs over plated warriors because the latter scale so well into the late game. Shield slugs never really feel useful. Their cost early game outweighs their value and in the mid game there are simply better options available to blue.
I'd like to see some kind of buff, be it range, attack speed, health pool or cost/build time reduction. Ryme already feels like he needs to get plated warriors to tank with. Hydros needs the opposite, and shield slugs aren't it.
I agree with all the points above, but I want to specifically say I think Blue feels way too reliant on the Quadrapus right now. Their topend feels lackluster and their bottom end feels too strong by a bit. I think Blue is a strong faction right now but they feel so insanely powerful when they hit Tier 2 and then play almost exactly the same for the rest of the game, and their Tier 3 only feels like it works because of the Quadrapus.
They can survive almost anything but they still can't kill things if their teammates are out of position and their builds/gameplay feels very set right now.
Loving the discussion going on in here and just wanted to pop in and say that we're taking toooons of notes here. Specifically, this thread has sparked a discussion about the state of both Frostcallers and the Quadrapus. Don't be surprised if you see some changes made to both of those units sooner than later =)
Cool beans. I was thinking about making a blog thread type thing that does the same for every color as I play more of them. I feel like I've played enough blue to comment on it, the other colors not so much. I wanted to get my first impressions jotted down before I become inevitably grizzled and, uh, whatever the hell else it is that makes Cycle like that.
@Treisk I actually think the Quadrapus is mostly ok right now due to the slight nerf, in that I think the only real problem with it is how hard it is to see and thus how hard it is to snipe. Quads are very appealing targets and each one you kill weakens the Blue wall by a very substantial amount, so the counterplay is there.
However as I mentioned in a few other threads, they're super hard to see right now, which makes actually sniping them more difficult than just "doing the correct things" because sometimes you just can't find them despite them being right in the mix of an army. If they were easier to see and thus quicker to pick up as valid targets I think they would be fine.
When people do successfully snipe my Quads early and often, it makes an enormous difference, much like when you gun down Apocalytes before they can lay down many nukes, which feels interesting and fun to be on both sides of.
On the other hand, I don't think Blue has anything else that is really strong right now if you take away or nerf the Quadrapus outside of Shadow timing attacks. Quads hold the entire faction together and without them you're looking at a lot of units that do similar things to each other but have neither the durability nor the immediate impact to match what many of the other factions can do, I feel.
Blue units need to be around for awhile to do their dirty because they do it slow. Quadrapi make that possible right now. They also force the opponent to actually fight Blue instead of mostly ignoring them to focus on other people, which makes their aesthetic work. Before Quads were fixed people would often ignore me in fights unless i was Shadowbombing.
If the Quadrapus gets nerfed further, I think Blue would want some serious buffs in other areas to make up for it, possibly in areas of gameplay it is currently fairly deficient, because it really does feel like the glue that holds the faction together and makes many of their units and strategies "work" that otherwise might not.
I don't personally love seeing units that are "Must haves" for a given faction unless they are default units, but right now there seem to be one or so for each faction so it's a bit less of an issue. I kind of equate the Quadrapus to the Dervish and the Windray, in that they feel like the core Blue unit that makes everything better, but you have to know that you should probably always put them in your deck which is kind of weird. And while Red and White are still fine factions without their buffbots, Blue doesn't feel like a complete faction without the Eyeball Monster quite yet, at least in my opinion.
Good post tedster. I think that sentiment sums up the reason I made this thread in the first place. You can really see the contrast between pre and post quadrapus fix blue 'feeling'. I also think there is a similar problem with those same core units in the other colors. We've essentially seen what happens when a 'core' unit is disabled/enabled with the intervention bug.
I think that with green for example if you were to disable a unit the entire color wouldn't suffer as much. There isn't a 'core' unit to the same degree as the other colors. Whereas if you were to disable dervishes on red or quadrapus on blue, many units compositions and strategies instantly become less viable.
So in summation, this thread seems to be saying dependency between units is limiting to composition. I'm reminded of old WoW talent trees that had many hundreds of configurations, but in reality if you weren't using a handful of configurations for your specification you were 'doing it wrong'. Right now quadrapus doesn't feel like a choice because most blue units are dependent on it, and that isn't necessarily a problem with quadrapus as much as it is with those other units.
Ding ding ding. I don't think they're too strong, I think they just stand out as such a viable unit within some of blue's otherwise overly situational or somewhat weak units that, by contrast, they seem too good. I think Foam correctly pointed out that they're enabling Ice Frogs...if Aquas become less "meh" they'll probably do the same there.
My current Blue strat involves totally ignoring Blue's T3 to get Chillers instead of the underwhelming Dillos or Frogs. It boiled down to a contest between them and Ice Frogs and 9 times out of 10 I found the option to mass chillers more valuable by a large margin. At that point I can specifically gun down important casters and high-priority targets instead of... well, tanking some more while said casters lay down spells over and over on my troop blobs.
Chillers go great with Glacial Rangers and unlike Ice Frogs/Dillos they seem to force the opponent to play differently and respect your army. They are also much less reliant on Quadrapi if the opponent is sniping them over and over.
Of course, this even further highlights the weird place many Blue units seem to be in.