Tutorial, Intro and Regular Bots [TW4 Megathread]
How was your first experience in Atlas playing the tutorial and then bots? Did they help you learn the game? Were they fun to play against? Were you confused about anything at the end of the tutorial or bot games?
When providing feedback, please use the following format:
- X happened
- It made me feel Y (or I’d like to feel Y)
- (optional) Here’s a suggestion to improve it
I don't really understand the little ">>" guys on the right side of the Tutorial screen. Also, I can click them after victory, and hear about them, though I can't see them very well through the "Victory" banner.
Once or twice, my guys advanced to the next phase of the tutorial before the announcer could finish what he was already telling me about.
Between these two things, I'm left feeling like I may have missed part of the tutorial.
Initial impression from Intro Bots: This game makes more sense to me than TW3 did.
The economy feels a lot more familiar. I have a better sense of how to get resources and what to be doing.
Also, I had more cool success moments than I remember per game in TW3.
The start of the tutorial was good -- it gave me a quick moment to get a lay of the land and a sense for the controls. However, after the first skirmish with the Pyrosaur, I felt like there was a lot of information thrown at me very quickly. Building units in principle isn't too complex, but there were a lot of different screens of information to parse, and along with the narrator and the dialogue box providing further details, I felt quite overwhelmed. I had to play through a second time, just so i didn't miss all the information.
After that, I was told to go try a bot game, and that there would be in-game tips and reminders to help guide me through a full game. I'm first presented with a huge selection of heroes, with little to go on for what they do or which to choose. Then you get a massive unit customization screen, where you have about a dozen units to switch in and out from your roster. Given that I had only just barely learned about two units in the game, this sudden shift was pretty dramatic. I was basically forced to just pick the default army, hope for the best, and tell myself I'd come back to look into other options later.
I didn't see any reminders or tips during game play (they might have been there, but all I saw were UI pings for checking unit completion or bots wanting to target certain areas). I wasn't really clear on where I should direct my focus, other than it looked like the bots were farming jungle monsters, so I joined them aimlessly. It took me nearly half of the game to figure out there were upgrade stations, so by the time anything I queued up finished, the ally bots had basically wiped out one lane and suddenly the game had ended.
Overall, seemed like a lot of deep RTS game play, but it was really difficult to get into because the complexity curve was insanely steep. It feels like the tutorial could be a lot longer -- talk about the other structures, upgrades, etc. to finish getting up to speed with playing the game; then some out-of-game guidance on how to pick a hero and assemble a team; then some basic strategy tutorials to help get a sense for how to not play like a total noob, haha.
When the tutorial ended It left me unsure of how the entire resource system works. How to gather, upgrade, and spend was glossed over and fairly untouched.
It didn't really prepare you for a full sized map and the flow of the game. When I first loaded in a match "Easy, Medium, and Hard" seemed foreign although the bots clearly think that if you suicide into them at the 3 minute mark is the key to winning. I've played enough Dota to know they will reward you with... something, but what? and why the risk?
There was also no mention of control groups and how they work, it played similar to StarCraft so I picked it up at the start, but new players need to understand the importance of them.
Before I start, my competitive game background is in DotA 2, so that's the perspective this comes from.
The game seems fun, a bit overwhelming at first. When I got to the screen asking me to pick a hero, and subsequently at the deck building screen, I felt overwhelmed with the options with little to no understanding of the differences each hero/unit provided. Maybe to fix this, each hero could have a small button near them which gives their archetypes/lore and a basic rundown of their units
Once I got into the game, I immediately tried to associate it with SC2/DOTA and figure out the controls. The tutorial didn't provide information about the tech tiers, the command center, nor the research lab. Types of damage were also never discussed, leaving me with a sense of confusion.
This may come from my bias, but I assumed tech 2 research would be in the lab as opposed to the command core, a small thing but it's where I always look for tech
The queuing system is a bit confusing, with little information to show what the definition of basic/advanced units are and how they differ.
Resources felt a little glossed over, I found myself confused on how to increase supply and collect scrap.
I felt confused about neutral camps and their purpose--in DotA it's very clear what the purpose is and how to do them, but I rarely felt any reason to in this game
I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned how the EXP system works and what you unlock with each level, or when you gain access to your second ability
From my MOBA experience I habitually animation cancel, which doesn't really work in this game due to a sort of lag. Normally the key sequence I use is: a-click -> attack -> right click and repeat, but there was lag between the right click and the a-click so that it felt like the command wasn't registering
Pathing in this game is really rough, a-clicking on a target would often result in units glitching out behind others unable to fire as opposed to them moving a bit to a point where they could be in range
Excited at the promise this game has, just hoping that more resources will emerge so I feel less lost, thanks!
I had a similar first experience to what FatTire mentions. I felt it was a very short tutorial considering how beafy this game seems. Maybe making it more lengthy to cover more mechanical aspects? That is my suggestion.
I wasn't able to use minimap movement during the tutorial. I would try to clic or drag the poligon and it would stutter back with no response from my units. Is this disabled? It was a bit frustrating as a StarCraft player to not be able to use my minimap.
Perspective: Novice Starcraft 2 player a while ago (Mid-Bronze to low Silver ranked in Wings of Liberty, did not play the expansions). Intermediate Dota 2 player (~1500 hours, roughly 3000 solo queue MMR). This is my first experience playing Atlas.
It seemed that there was a big gap between the Tutorial and the intro bot game. In particular, resource management was mostly unexplained. Until I found information on the forums, I had no idea what resources I got from neutral camps, and it took me a while to even find how to get other resources in the first place. This meant I was stuck with the most basic units and I struggled to figure out how to proceed.
I think the nodes that you collect from the neutral camps need to have distinguishing features, at least in color if nothing else, from the nodes you collect to build the titans. I first thought that neutral camp stuff simply added to a counter for building titans, and had no idea how to collect resources other than from the building.
I felt a bit unprepared for a bot game coming fresh out of the tutorial as well. I wasn't sure about resource collection or upgrades, as well as the deck building at the beginning.
Additionally, I feel the narrator in the tutorial needs subtitles.
The tutorial definitely could be a bit more in depth. I was still rather confused going into the bots.
I felt like the tutorial wen too fast and also restricted my view too much, I want to take things slow, figure out what the heck that building does, but the tutorial was already forcing my screen away and jumping me into combat, next thing I know we are talking about these gem things but before I have a chance to play around and understand it my screen is forced away again and now I am attacking the enemy base. It just felt like I had no time to understand all the information thrown at me.
My second issue is that as soon as you are done with the tutorial you get dumped straight into the main game, with little explanation of the army system. I would prefer if you are given only one color army and only two heroes so you are not overwhelmed by the amount of units and heroes to choose from.
Now on the positive side while I did not love the tutorial the game itself is pretty intuitive, I felt like I was able to learn the basics of the game after only a few playthroughs.
I felt like I didn't have a clear sense of how and when to gather resources, and i was just sorta floundered around. Related to this, when I queued into a game I was very confused about what I should be doing (camps/titan/attacking.)
While ideally they're might be multiple things one could do at the beginning of the game, I think a more in depth tutorial which is essentially a game where you're told what to do strategically would make me feel a lot more confident going into games against the bots.
Hello! I just played the tutorial and a couple bot games for the first time. I'm loving the game. Here's some feedback:
I feel like the first part of the tutorial introduces combat well enough. The macro segment after that needs to be a little more fleshed out. I didn't feel like I was properly introduced to the macro mechanics until I had played a couple of bot games, which is something I think should be covered in the tutorial. I didn't even really play the game in those first bot games. I sat around clicking on structures and reading trying to get a handle on the resource system.
Perhaps having a longer tutorial segment (with more space between the enemy structures) where mechanics and resources are the focal point would provide a better introduction. Another thing I think needs introducing is army customization. I didn't realize it was even possible to customize your army because I had glazed over the text after having seen the hero screen for the first time. There is a ton of new information being introduced there that may be better absorbed in smaller chunks.
Overall I think that players who are already familiar with MOBA style games will need less introduction. I can't really comment as to how a new player to the genre would adapt to the game in the tutorial. I had the intuition to look back at my base for upgrades and items, to macro, and to warp in units. New players having no frame of reference could easily be overloaded and lost. For example, it took me a while to figure out how to warp in my hero at the start of my first bot game. Things like these need to be directed the first time through (They weren't immediately apparent, or apparent enough, I think).
In the tutorial, when I discovered the camera was locked on my hero, it made me feel uncomfortably out-of-control. Perhaps it was because my hero was not in the center of the screen, or perhaps it was the locking of the camera itself.
I think I understand why you locked the camera this way (so when you are new you don't lose track of where your hero is, right?). If other people feel as I do, maybe there could be another way to ensure the player does not lose track of the hero in the tutorial.
At about 11 minutes my AI teamates got stuck on the right side of the map and wriggled around until the game ended (around 15minutes in)
I admit is was very funny, but the only thing that made them leave was a titan attacking our nexus.
Personally, I feel like upgrades should be explained in the tutorial. It took me around 3 bot games to realize they were there and they are still somewhat a mystery to me.
Also it took me a while to understand the value of scrap orbs and supply crystals, I knew I wanted to pick them up but not why or how much they were worth. I think there should be a little "+20 scrap" popup or something when you finish collecting an orb to make it more clear.
Finally, the character select screen is a bit overwhelming. I don't really know what I want or what any units do, though I suppose that is to be expected until I play more of the game. I have just stuck with the defaults while I try and figure stuff out.
Edit: After playing some games I noticed there is a popup when you get the generator orbs. However it's in reference to the number needed to get a titan not the scrap value, which I think is a bit misleading.
I feel the tutorial is half completed. There was no explanation about the economy and playing against bots was definitely trial and error just to get an army. I'm sure if I play more I can figure this out but I have more questions than answers at this point.
Choosing a Hero seems straight forward. Selecting the "best" hero will only come with time as I'm not familiar with any of the heroes.
The tutorial mentioned that you can choose which minions will be part of your army and that there are neutral minions. Once I got to choose a hero, I didn't understand the minion selection process. Which minions are the tier1 minions? Which are tier2? How many minions at each tier can I have? Are there neutral minions at all tiers?
I also feel that I don't understand the economy part. Can I build more buildings? If I lose a building can I rebuild it? One of the bots on my team lost a building, the game was telling me "your base is under attack", this is confusing because I can't interact on the friendly bots' buildings. I can't summon my minions onto their area.
I feel like the tutorial dialogs should continue even if I complete the task being shown. When I first went through the tutorial I was skimming the dialogs for the goal (such as "move here", "build this") while listening to audio for the details. I didn't realize that the dialog would jump to the next step when I completed the current one and during the build instructions I ended up hearing the first few words of several steps back to back without having a chance to fully process any of them.
If the dialog is skippable I think it should be through a manual "skip" button, anyone not skipping the tutorial could probably stand to listen to an extra few minutes of explanation.
I have a lot of SC2, Dota 2, and LoL experience, and I did the tutorial and the intro bot games just fine, but I was confused and frustrated that after 3 games, I was still only level 1, with 0/90 experience, and not sure why I wasn't making any progress; I thought it was a bug, so I submitted a bug report. I later asked in chat and an Artillery member confirmed that for vs. Intro Bot games, if you win in under 8 minutes, you don't get any account experience. I realize that LoL has this too, as a way to combat people just stomping easy bots to grind out account experience, so I don't have an issue with that system in concept, but nowhere in game is this explained to us (in League a little popup tells you why you didn't get exp).
I'd recommend disabling the 'no experience in sub-8 minute games' feature for the first handful of games that a new account plays, or just letting people play versus normal bots at level 1, because it felt bad to just play normally post-tutorial, win a game really quickly due to other game experience, and then not receive any experience, nor any reason why I haven't. There's no feedback or explanation. I can't move onto non Intro bots until I hit level 2, so that makes it even worse; I had to play at a difficulty that was way too easy, and made zero progress towards unlocking a higher difficulty mode.
When i came to the hero selection screen for the first time i felt a bit overwhelmed. At first it felt natural to pick your hero as you do this in many other games - the subsequent deck selection however became confusing quickly. I chose "Alder" and therefore i got "Seedbot", "Howling Commander" and four others. There is a small gap between "Seebot" and the other five.
The text above tell me to "Customize my army. At first i thought you get one sidekick (Seedbot chosen by default) and i could swap for another of the five next to him (therefore the gap indicating who is in your army and who is available). I clicked on "Howling Commando" and now i get entirely lost. Instead of "Seebot" and "Howling Commando" switching places as i expected the hero selection at the top faded away, up came a close-up of "Howling Commando" and the text to "Choose an additional basic unit".
"Howling Commando" is highlighted at this point and raised. So i though "Ok, seems Seedbot is always with you", i now have "Howling Commando" added to my army and i can select another one from the four remaining ones at the bottom.
I clicked on "Grove Tender" and instead of this card also getting highlighted and raised all at a sudden i see 11 cards in two rows with two different colors and a text to chose an advanced unit (that is where i went "wtf!?"). "Howling Commander" is back to unraised and "Grove Tender" is now selected.
At this point i kept clicking around. The last four cards seem to always trigger the 11 cards at the top and i can choose each card to be any of the five - but i can't have to the same type (which i only learned by accident). The "Grove Tender" only ever trigger the "Grove Tender" and the "Seebot" trigger selecting the hero which makes the hero selection appear... mmmmhhh... so at this point i assume "Seedbot" is a fixed sidekick and therefore the gap. "Grove Tender" is the only available "Basic" Unit in the alpha and there should be more to come (it's basically a dropdown with one available option) and the four other cards are "Advanced" slots. But why is there no indicator which army slot can be advanced and which is for basic. And what are the colors of the cards about? Attacker vs supporters maybe?
I keep clicking, i learn that (re-)choosing a hero selects some kind of default army. I select "Alder" again and carry on with the default army. Still a bit puzzled but i decide to just carry on....
I write this right after it happened so sorry for the stream of conscious. Thought there is only one chance for a first impression so i tried to put it in writing asap.
I felt fairly lost in my first game,
I understood the main objective, but what to do after summoning was confusing--- should i be fighting the camps? going to the titan spawners? looking to fight the enemies? splitting up or going with my team?
next I wasn't sure about exp--- did I have to be near the fight for exp, or participate in the kill? did the hero have to fight or just the minions? did you have to get the last hit? should i be more concerned with exp or the minions and upgrades?
-- I felt it was more confusing since i couldn't see the levels or resources of my team or the enemies so i wasn't sure if i was behind or ahead (not sure if there is a way to see levels yet or if i'm missing them)
finally, the orbs that drop, and what exactly is shared between you and the 2 others on your team--- did i only get resources if i clicked on the drops, or if my team did? if both me and someone else marked a drop did we both get the full drop, or half and half, or one got all and the other nothing? do we share any resources or supply? do the titan orbs give resources too?
I have mixed feelings about the tutorial. On one hand, it is very well built. The popups on the screen didn't feel too intrusive and were quite helpful. It also did a good job on teaching some unit control. However, I felt it was lacking some of the essentials, such as developing resources at the command core or how upgrades work.
When I got into my first game, I had no idea what to do. Even being someone fairly experienced in both SC2 and LoL, it was difficult to get a grasp on how to create units, what units I should create, how to upgrade units, what resources I should be investing in, and so on. After a couple of hours I think I finally have an idea of how things should be done, but it wasn't easy.
I think there needs to be a second tutorial sequence that eases the player into the actual game. A few suggestions:
I know that players need to learn as they go, but the tutorial as it is now leaves players with a lot of questions when they load into their first game (especially those that have never played a game quite like this before).
I like the little alerts that come up while playing the intro bots to remind of certain things that you can be doing, but I noticed some inconsistency in terminology. One popup referred to the Research Facility and Charm Shop, though they are now called the Research Lab and the Item Shop. Small thing, but I'm a sucker for consistency.
I like the tutorial for how it explained combat, I feel it did well at explaining that much, however it left almost everything else in the dark for me. I'm still unsure of where/how/when to gather resources and what all the buildings have to offer (I've read through them and understand them a bit now but I would liked to have known a bit more about them from the tutorial). I love the combat tutorial but maybe in the future some other additional tutorial would be helpful for new players?
Appreciate the feedback everyone!
We definitely intend to expand on our current tutorial to explain the more complex systems in the game (such as resource management) in the future. Please continue to leave feedback about how comfortable/confused you were playing the game post intro bots.
Once PVP starts, let us know how you felt going into the game and how you stacked up against the other players. Also let us know if you see players doing anything that you simply did not understand the purpose of. (ex. why is this player clearing camps so often?)
I think it should be a two part tutorial, a lot of key parts are missing from it right now:
* One training resource management it should answer- When should we attack what camps?, what do the upgrades do?, and everything else related to resources
* Other being battle training- How to macro and micro (key bindings), how to build an appropriate army, getting towers and titans, and other things that a new player should know about doing battle
I think the two part tutorial should be in the learn section so it can be used as an interactive reference tool.
I basically think the tutorial needs to be more in depth because I needed about 5 regular bot games to get a good feel about the game when I should feel mostly ready after I play bots for maybe 2 times.
After finishing the tutorial I felt pretty uninformed. After going through the tutorial again after playing some games against bots I noticed that I completely missed the buttons on the right of the tutorial which explained the tech tree, neutral camps and such. I might suggest making the tutorial longer (maybe putting in another tower?) to give people more time to explore in the tutorial before they win. This would help people to take some time to explore other aspects of the game.
Ok, so one quick thing. I launched, did the tutorial, then when it closed out I had somehow logged out. So i signed back in, then it opended the tutorial again. Not a big thing, just a weird thing.
*Voice-over in the tutorial was good. The Echo-ey voice made me feel like i was entering a future-style world.
*I liked the unit control, I liked the grouping and selection mechanics. Maybe something explaining that units will try to stay to a similar formation to how you select them might be nice for a non-RTS player tip. I think in general more info for the new player is good in that situation, because MOBA players may not be familiar with that mechanic.
*"Leveling up the character and getting another ability was cool. But it felt less meaningful because nothing told me it happened. Maybe a sense of victory or progression with a "After defeating your enemy this first time you gained enough XP to level up and recieved this second ablitity. Use it to push forward." That feeling of victory at the end would be awesome after that.
OK, I just played the tutorial and then a single game against the bots. Here are my opinions:
Tutorial is great. Locked camera for the tutorial? Great. Teaches you how to produce Great. This tutorial was really helpful in teaching me the very basics of the game. One thing I'd like in this tutorial is a better explanation of scrap, how to get it, and how it is used, as well as a better explanation of gems and how to get them.
Let's move on to the first game. This wasn't the greatest experience I had, because I don't think the tutorial adequately prepared me for it. This leads me to believe that this first tutorial was a beginner level tutorial, and that more should follow at a higher level. But let's see why I felt this way.
At the start of the game I was presented with a hero select screen, followed by an army select screen. With each of the cards, I was given a general overview of how the unit worked. This felt fine, but I was a little confused coming out of the tutorial. I chose Eris since I knew I played Vex in the tutorial -- so I figured I may as well stick with red.
I did not understand the mini map at first. I think I am starting to figure it out now, but it was very unintuitive (The hero representation is a crown in a circle(I think), and this crown is hard to distinguish). I feel like I am slowly getting better with it, however it would have been helpful to learn how to make use of this information before jumping in.
Production was very difficult to understand. The tutorial had one building, the real game has 3. I didn't actually realize that the other 2 were useful until half way through the game. A tutorial explaining the research type buildings would have been really nice.
Control groups. I got fed up with moving the map back and forth over and over and making units this way, and just guessed there would be control groups. Would have been really nice if this was explained to me.
I also didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing in the game. It seemed like my allies were attacking the mercenary camps like in heroes of the storm, so I did that. However, the game looked like DOTA where there normally is a laning phase. Also, I thought allied creeps spawned a couple minutes in, but couldn't be sure. It just seemed like I was wandering around hoping to not get killed.
The bots said GLHF and I was happy.
I ran into some sort of bush/cover thing? Maybe? Not sure but the terrain faded in and out as I walked through it.
The end of match screen was informative.
I ended the first game with 89/90 xp for level 2 and i cried a little inside.
All in all I found the game reasonably fun. Maybe it'll grow on me.
Time to go play some more games vs bots
I totally forgot about XP. I had no idea what it was, what it did, how good it was, how to get it, or anything of the sort. I just knew my hero got an extra ability at level 8(I think).
I also noticed that there were items like in DotA, but I wasn't sure how they worked, if I had inventory space, if there were more than the 4 or 5 available options, etc
Thanks, Snkz. I think that sounds like a great idea. Many people have posted and said that the current tutorial did not prepare them adequately for PvP, and I would tend to agree with them.
HOWEVER, if this is 'part 1' of the tutorial and there will be 'part 2,' part 3,' etc., then I think it is a fantastic first introduction. (with my only gripe being the fixed camera I discussed earlier in the thread)
Warning: Wall of text incoming.
- I've never really gotten above Silver League in LoL, or in Starcraft 2. I am, for all intents and purposes, a nub, pleb, scrub, or whatever you want to call it. If that affects how you receive my feedback, I'm okay with this.
- I was in Test Weekend 3, so I'll be referring back to that to draw points of comparison at times.
Part 1 - Jumping into the new tutorial
Pros: Having a playable tutorial is awesome. I had fun playing through the simplified map, and getting used to the units. I feel like I got a chance to get used to the controls (hotkeys for abilities, army selection, etc), as well as feel the... weightiness (sorry, can't think of a better word) of the combat projectile impacts. Locking the camera to the hero unit seems like a pretty good idea, making the times where the camera breaks away to show something very meaningful (such as focusing on a healing tower, a shield generator, or the nexus.
Cons: I feel like the Tutorial in its current state is nowhere near as complete an introduction as the video Day made for TW3, relative to the current game mechanics. The narration glosses over stock and supply, and doesn't mention how scrap is obtained. Research isn't discussed at all, so there's no sense of achievement in building the first advanced unit. Taking a step back from that, why aren't the individual buildings explained? Aside from the fact that there's now 4 major buildings where there used to be 3, each one is important for a different reason, and I feel like that should be explained. While there are some good subliminal clues marking the titan as important, the game never explains the "Why". Namely, that normal units suck at bringing buildings down at speed, and a titan is needed to make significant progress on objectives.
All in all, aside from one bug I discovered, I'm glad at the progress being made to make the tutorial more interactive. However, given the complexity of the game, I don't think making it longer and more complete would be a bad thing.
Part 2 - Intro Bots!
I really REALLY like the system in place for choosing your squad. This is the improvement over the mercenary system in TW3 that I didn't even know I wanted. High five on that! Also yay for the game still being 3v3! I was super excited to see what had changed from the previous weekend. Lets build some units... spawn them... wtf why is this slower than a narcoleptic protoss warpgate? What is the reason for the units having a build time if they're just going to have another charge time as they warp in? That's annoying, but meh. Okay, lets see what else changed.
Wait, scrap, stock, and supply are researchable now? Um. Can't say I was expecting that. So... I'm guessing focusing on accumulating scrap is akin to focusing on teching up, and researching stock and supply mean you're focused on making your army as big as possible? Seems like this has potential for introducing even more meaningful choices to the strategy of the game, but at the same time I kinda liked the stock limitations of TW3. There was a definitive end-game condition when people ran out of stock before, and a really nice sense of advantage if you got the stock boost from destroying an objective.
Where'd the expansion points go? One of the things i really liked doing in the previous weekend was pushing through an enemy expansion, then leaving one of my own as my team fell back, so we could have a nice advantage when going back to the gem fountains. Either the enemy team would bypass my jerk expansion (thus getting me more scrap I could use for stuff), or they'd stop to destroy it, letting us get more gems from the fountain before having to fight over the objective. With the expansions gone, I feel like the pendulum is swinging a bit too far into 'Moba' territory, and away from the 'Strategy Game' territory as far as objectives are concerned.
Part 3- Summary and Miscellaneous
- I'm sure I'll have more feedback if I get more chances to play, although sadly this weekend is super busy for me so that might not be the case.
- I'm glad to see the improvements to pathfinding, although I still had some issues moving through/around allied units but I suppose that will always be the case.
- I couldn't find the ping menu. This made me sad.
- Hearing 'Research Complete' or 'Construction Complete' but not seeing what had completed on the UI made me sad. Further, I wanted to press 'space' to go back to the building that had just finished researching, but spacebar didn't behave this way. More sadness.
I'm super glad I got to play, and look forward to seeing the game improve even more.