Playtest 196: SandStorm Part 2
Treisk
Member, Administrator
in Patch Notes
Playtest 196: SandStorm Part 2
Squads
Eris
- Eris
- SandStorm (F)
- Damage per shot: 50 ⇒ 30
- Eris now has her attack cooldown reduced by 80% while active
- Removed windup time on each shot
- Removed movement speed penalty
- Can no longer be canceled prematurely
- SandStorm (F)
Comments
Changes to Eris Ult
(1.1) - General take on this version is improved. It flows better (as opposed to feeling like it breaks flow when triggered, as previously), and seemed easier to get value out of. Could benefit from a timer indicator (I don't think I saw one) to show how long you have left on the ult. I didn't run into the cancel, since I'd already trained myself to wait for it to kick in. However, and I'm sure others have brought this up, it would be very nice if it could attack flying targets. I was hoping it would be a strong add at 6 for clearing camps, but much of what is left at that point in the game is flying, so it doesn't converge.
General Notes
(2.1) - I'm liking the speed increase more and more as we play on it. I heard y'all are working on a new map, it will be interesting to see how the speed feels relative to that, in part to see just how much gain that control has.
(2.2) - No real feedback on squads or matchup tonight. Curious when the other squads will be dropping back in. I think the big flying end game merc suffers from cubism, shouldn't overlap. Much prefer not playing with the game enders at all at this point, or just /draw'ing when the game gets to that point, it's faster to get back to testing.
I still honestly can't say I notice the movement speed changes during regular combat, so same as last week - probably a good thing for general engagements, still too far to help an ally with whom I'm not paired. Will wait for the map to address the latter!
re: Eris ult, I didn't play AS Eris but I did play against the squad once. I never thought "WTF was that bullshit" so that's got to be good?
To address a few things Day[9] was asking in chat yesterday, one topic was how strategic choices feel over time? I like the concept of many of the mid-game mercenaries - I've still yet to figure out if my chosen squad at any points benefits more from healers vs motivators vs enhancers. I've been wondering whether Phantoms are powerful in a Vex squad setup that has the Searing Pain + Seethe upgrade. These ideas are really cool! And as I've mentioned in previous feedback, I loooove how a Blinder can manipulate huge army blobs and make them shuffle around ineffectively.
And yet...
They. Don't. Matter. At. All.
I see absolutely zero reason to spend my scrap/gem resources on mid-game mercenaries when the most efficient way to secure victory is to simply send Juggs to the enemy towers/nexus. The mid-game mercs will probably let me secure an advantage in combat over my opponent, but that doesn't help you establish much. It's cute that I'm 2 or 3 levels ahead of my opponent and winning almost every engagement, but it does nothing to progress the game toward the end goal. Juggs do. In order for mid-game mercs to pay off, I would have to be able to use them to deny my opponent the amount gems/scrap I invested in these mercs so that I would not be behind on getting Juggs to close out the game.
As discussed with @ItanoCircus , @Hazard rd and @Aqua in Discord yesterday post-Sean's departure, there are a few reasons I'm bringing up Juggs specifically and not Leviathans. If I see my opponent has gone for Leviathans, I have an answer in either Shrikes or Orions. Yes, these mercs are pretty specialized and don't do terribly much for engagements or letting me close out the game, but they will wonderfully prevent my opponent from closing out the game using Leviathans. And once I kill the enemy Leviathans, even if I invested more scraps/gems in doing so, they are effective deterrents vs these units again in the future.
One of the problems with Juggs is that I have seemingly no way to stop them effectively. I can feel all clever when I catch one or two of them on the field alone, unsupported by an army, but that feeling quickly fades when I realize how little damage I'm doing to it - and this rings true regardless of which squad I play! I wasn't just playing Hydros yesterday, I played Vex and by golly these Juggs just won't die! They survive long enough so that the enemy army can always make it in time if they feel threatened, but more often than not the Juggs can just plod across the map and make it to their destination (whether back in safe territory, or my nexus) without dying. It's soooooo frustrating and I feel helpless no matter what I've done in the game. Sure, Juggs are a huge investment of resources but it's a huge investment of my own resources (time/units) to try and stop them, effectively halting anything else I'd be doing in the game for a significant amount of time. If I catch Leviathans out of position, at a mere 20% of the health of Juggs I can at least take them down before my children are born and graduate high school.
We discussed half a dozen different solutions ranging from ion cannons doing serious damage to Juggs (thus forcing your opponent to come out to you in a location that ISN'T your nexus in order to facilitate ending the game, which would be cool - my first and favorite thought) to lowering Jugg health to having squads do more damage to Juggs than towers do etc. etc. No idea what would mesh best with Artillery's internal plans so I'll refrain from going too far down the rabbit hole.
Speed Changes
Speed changes are good. I don't notice them. Vela's Fair Warning/Snipe skillshot isn't impossibly hard with the current speed so I am fine with it. Overall happy about it.
The more "voiced" topic at hand however.
[ Juggernauts ]
Personally I don't have a problem with juggernauts. They're slow and bumbling and even with 6,000 hp I'm not too worried about them. I can see how some squads can have a lot of trouble with them if they don't have a good way to remove them from the field but playing Vela, I can dish out 1800 damage with Snipe (4 deadeyes) every 7-8 seconds whenever it's up with my fair warning. (Plus auto attacks) It's almost impossible to miss them so I am perfectly fine taking them out. Add on some Leviathans for ranged DPS and a trapper/chillerman to really slow them down and it's hook line and sinker.
2 Replays where I am able to deal with juggernauts quite easily with my allies assisting.
Gbd57160e1e5d4a378c42ac38335a4171
Gb431a50c12054dceac50101b28bf9039
I think the distaste for juggernauts is a bit out of proportion and people are at a loss with how to deal with them. There certainly isn't an OBVIOUS way to deal with them like Shrikes -> Leviathans but I think people just don't prepare for juggernauts and so when they come they just become unhappy and frustrated.
[SC2 Analogy incoming]
Just like how you get angry when a cloaked banshee flies into your base and you don't have detection. It's super lame and feels OP and sucky but in all reality an investment into some detection / Antiair turret would have solved the problem effortlessly.
I imagine as the game matures and people are forced to repeatedly deal with juggernauts they will find a way to take care of them. Not to say that it would be completely out of line to make it EASIER to deal with them.
[Examples]
3 Leviathans shooting at a juggernaut will kill it in 33 seconds (6000 / ( 67 * 3)
10 Whelps will take 80 seconds.
10 Artillary Cubes = 52 seconds.
Those seem like they take a long time but that doesn't count in your army which should do loads more DPS. (Except maybe for Hydros.) Also sure they move pretty slowly but you can practically stop them in their tracks with Trappers freezing them or a Chillerman Freezing them. They do AoE slows for a reason I imagine
TLDR: I don't think they're that bad.
OK so I didn't have time to watch both replays, but I watched Gbd57160e1e5d4a378c42ac38335a4171 to full.
To be fair, I'm not sure that's an honest representation of why Juggs are OK. The entire game was very very heavily Leviathan-based. Unless I miscounted, there were only 5 Juggs made during that entire game. Every single one of them (except the first pair) came out one at at time and was caught alone. The last one even had two of your armies in their entireties (including leviathans) beating down on a single Jugg and he STILL managed to both get across the field and take down one of your expansion buildings. And this was with your specific squad setup which is arguably one of the highest DPS configurations possible.
I will posit that if both sides had spent the amount of money they'd put into Leviathans instead into Juggs, that game would have likely ended 10 minutes sooner. I think they're bar-none the most cost effective use of both scrap and gems in ending a game, and any resources you spend not on them simply delays the end of the game.
Following the thought process in your [Examples], a single Jugg takes 32 seconds to take out a Reward Tower, 50 seconds to take out a Mega Node by itself**. Put that into perspective vs the cost of the units you're tying up to try to take them down and I think it'll start to paint a picture of why, if I throw enough Juggs at once at your mega node/nexus, there probably isn't an more straightforward way to win the game.
(**JUST IN CASE: There's a chance my #'s need to be reduced on the towers in case their 2k HP is not doubled by shields, but rather some smaller amount.)
Edit: Thanks @Nib for clarifying the #'s!
I did the testing and since it's exactly 10 hits (1000 shield and 2000 life with 0 armour) it takes 25s for a single jugg to take out a reward tower. Also I'm pretty sure it's 62.5 seconds for a mega node as they have 150 armour not 100.
Playtest Feedback
Having played only Eris and Vex, I like the change to Eris' Ultimate. I can't speak as to whether or not it's improved on the first post-"Reset" Ultimate, but I do like it more than Reset. "Reset" felt more of an Ultimate where I have the opportunity to do extra damage and outplay, rather than punchy, visual "notice this or die".
Though I did see the +15% speed boost for all units in the forums, I didn't feel they were too much faster in the game. However, I didn't have concerns with the movement speed of units specifically. I feel that the size of the map (to be addressed Wednesday from what I heard) was a large barrier to interacting with my top / bottom allies while I was on the other side, far more so than the speed of the units. Hopefully the adjusted map will also change the snowball-y feel of the bottom matchup.
Juggernauts vs Non-Ultimate Mercs
I agree with Spidey's opinion on Juggernauts in that they're superior options, but the crux of the problem for me is less about how well they tank and take out Towers and more about the restrictions existent in using non-Juggernaut (and especially Raiders as your choice of) Mercenaries.
I have gotten Chillerman, Enhancers, Whelps, Blindermen... non-Leviathan units for the Raiders, in essence. I feel they are interesting choices and I like using them and seeing the impact they have on my opponent's army. They also allow me to even up being behind in levels or dominate the opposing army while ahead. I feel that the problem is that there is too much risk in using them even as I'm using them.
If I have some Chillerman in my army, that feels both like a point of strength and weakness. A point of strength because it augments my army, but a point of weakness because if it dies, I will have spent a "hard" resource (Scrap and Gems) for a resource so soft that it's NEARLY free (enemy army units that replenish + time) in the context on the 8-12 minute mark I'm likely to use those units. It also feels like a point of weakness, because if I don't win the fight and keep ALL of my mid-tier mercenaries alive, I will be left with an army slightly stronger than my opponent's at the cost of spending non-renewable resources without having done enough damage to an opponent that spends those resources on Juggernauts instead.
The benefit of time isn't something I'm underestimating. I understand (and have!) both used those mid-tier mercenaries to aggressively bully an enemy's bases or take out middle Towers and seen the same done against me. The feeling of strength comes from that, but it also brings a sense of helplessness. Even if I wipe out mid-level Watchtowers, the Mega Nodes and Nexus are not going to be wiped out by my much-larger later-game squad, those mid-level Mercenaries, and the Short Circuit Charm combined (as Vex and Eris). They have too many Hit Points, do too much damage (as they're alive for a long time), and I cannot afford to lose those mid-level Mercenaries or suffer the 45+ seconds it takes for squad units to respawn at that point in the game. There is not enough tanking or damage in my choice of squads and Mercenaries and Charms to handle those critical objectives.
The worst part of mid-level Mercenaries is the feeling of risk relative to the safety of using Juggernauts. If I use mid-level Mercs, I have to severely outplay my opponent. I need to buy and use the Mercenaries to crush my opponent's armies without losing the Mercenaries. I also can't lose the Mercenaries while taking out enemy bases or Towers, expanding, fighting Titans, and I ABSOLUTELY need to hit Level 6 before my opponent so I can further dominate and play aggressively. The entire onus of action is on me due to my early army expenditure, but in doing so my army takes on vastly more risk if I make poor decisions or micro inefficiently. There is the potential to get a lead over my opponent by dominating their bases, taking their Towers, securing vision, and exerting general pressure.
Or I can buy a Juggernaut. If I see another player buy mid-level Mercs, I feel relaxed in comparison. They need to smash my army, deny bases repeatedly, make minimal mistakes or not ever be punished for them, consistently focus on their mercs, trade more efficiently than I do in all circumstances, push Towers... why take the risk in making 6 mid-level Mercs and engage in that battle if I can safely, boringly, and (to the goal of ending the game) more efficiently buy 2 Juggernauts?
To me, it's not that Juggernauts can split-push ("One Jug at the top and the three of us at the bottom, we get something no matter what our opponents do") by themselves, which other mercenaries can't do. It's not even that they're expensive and do a lot of damage, like Leviathans do. I actually LIKE that they murder Towers, Mega Nodes, and can tank the Nexus. It's more that Juggernauts make me feel that I'm doing the wrong thing by doing the FUN thing of buying and fighting with mid-level Mercenaries. It's safer, requires less interaction, and avoids the chance of being outplayed entirely if I simply bunker down, take what I can, and push for Juggernauts.
Suggestion?
1.) Make it easier to kill the Mega Nodes and Nexus and nerf the Juggernaut accordingly.
Whether it's lower Health, lower physical resistance, lower MR, lower damage, replace Health for Shields, or something else, I don't have a preference among those. Chief among my concerns for the Juggernaut is that it alone can tank AND deal severe damage far in excess of what mid-level Mercs can achieve. I would rather buff everything else closer to "end-the-game-ability" than only cut down the Juggernaut. I also think addressing the structures works with less pain than adjusting all squads and mercenaries.
2.) Make mercenaries take up differing amounts of the Merc cap / supply.
One of the things I disliked when playing Resident Evil 5 for the first time (compared to RE4) is that inventory was slot-based. One Green Herb? One slot. One rocket launcher? One slot. There were more tradeoffs with RE4's briefcase inventory and the system balanced the weapons more efficiently than RE5 could. Similarly, I think making all mercs cost difering Supply would make for more interesting and practical choices. When a Sentinel and a Juggernaut take up the same space, cramped only by resources, the choices are limited.
3.) Bind a requisite Hero Level (9-13) to the A2 and B2-requiring Mercenaries.
This suggestion stems from the feeling that the level of Heroes facing each other pre- and post-6 don't change much. Level 5 and Level 3 Heroes don't feel significantly weaker than one another except through the tension that one is about to receive their ultimate. Being Level 11 against an opponent that's Level 8 doesn't feel like a noticeable difference since you both have your Ultimate.
Since I was thinking about that topic already, I think another way to make post-6 Hero levels meaningful and retain the stats for even the offending Juggernaut is to bind the required tech to a post-6 Hero level. This will artificially build gameplay arcs, allow Mercenaries to more easily avoid balance discussion, and invite the use of mid-level mercenaries. OF COURSE you would want mid-level Mercenaries despite the risk, you want to dominate your opponent's army now because you get traditional benefits + you can get your ultimate Mercenaries out... or that's the thought.
Thanks to @Aqua @SpideyCU @Hazard and anybody else that contributed to making me think about this topic
^^^^^
This is huge, and actually something that drastically impacts my decision to NOT use mercs like Martyrs. Conceptually they seem counterproductive to me - "let me, a non-auto-replaced unit, take damage for another, auto-replaced, unit, thereby effectively eating away at any resource advantage I may have". I feel like down the line there will be some SICK PLAYS to be made with units like Martyrs in combination with other abilities, but for right now they're a gimmick and you seriously hurt yourself by taking them.
I don't agree that the martyr is a gimmick unit. This unit has a clear use. You can use it to win key fights in the early mid game and then move on to push an outer turret and take it out. I think it's a situational unit that you bring in certain circumstances. Taking away 5 damage per attack is HUGE for squads with low HP units allowing them to dish out DPS longer, and then win the fight. Sure it dies often but if played right you can use it to win key fights to take key objectives. I would gladly pay the resource cost of a martyr or two in order to take a tower.
I think this is huge but in a good way. Having units that make you win fights but hurt you if they die is AWESOME! (imo.) You have a fragile(ish) force multiplier that requires SKILL to keep alive. Mercs make your army stronger and don't respawn so you are forced to work hard and micro to keep them alive. They have a real COST because when they die they don't come back you feel like you've lost something and I think that is awesome. I am a huge fan of anything in a game that is "hard" because if I'm able to do the thing that is "hard" then I feel like a good player. Mercs that buff my army and lead to me winning engagements as long as I can keep them alive is awesome. I get rewarded by getting kills in exchange for doing the "hard" task of keeping these units alive.
Sure they can spend their money on Juggs / Leviathans instead but I think I've made it clear on my previous post that I'm in the camp of that not being such a big deal so i won't reiterate.
PS: @Aqua @SpideyCU @Nib @ItanoCircus I love this conversation thanks for contributing. This is a big topic and I love that Atlas now has the depth to have conversations about things like this.