Relationships between Units (As of TW3)
Sorry to make another thread, but ZeldasCreed and I had a pretty extensive conversation about Unit relationships in this game, and I think I might as well post it. I hope my ideas don't need much more explanation because I really wanna hit the hay after I post this, but I'll definitely clarify whatever if anybody has questions. We talked about some other stuff, and I think I have mentioned basically all of it in other threads. I think I'll post irrelevant tidbits that I haven't already posted about, in a reply.
We had been talking about the role of heroes, and he mentioned that one issue was preventing the role of the hero from overpowering the role of the rest of your army:
Bean Yak - Today at 1:41 AM
well even then, you would expect to find a lot of dynamic play in the use of the other units, but I don't find it so much. Other than the fire dudes that jump and take another shot, the T1 units all feel like Zerglings with very little depth. So, then, you would expect the T2,3 unts to have the more influential abilities and roles, but it doesn't feel so strongly that way, even though they seem to be designed that way.
Would you mind if I made a bunch of SC2/WC3 comparisons?
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:42 AM
Hahah not at all!
Bean Yak - Today at 1:43 AM
okay, so T1 units in this game very much feel like the Zerglings/Marines/Zealots/Stalkers of this game, as I think they should. They serve very simple roles and can just kind of be dumped en masse as DPS, meat shield, whatever
the T2,T3 units are the units that accentuate the battles outside of the use of those units
If you look at TvT, it might boil down to Marine Tank Medivac: The marines are the steak and potatoes of the engagements, the siege tanks set up seige lines and force some sort of systematic attack on the defensive line, and medivacs provide an insane amount of mobility and healing to the marines and tanks
I think that, although frustrating, TvT is fun because of that kind of relationship of the units and how the mirror plays out
now, comparing this to Atlas, where it's currently at: The T1 units do feel like the marines, but something about them feels off, and I can't describe what. Then, the T2,T3 units just don't feel like they accentuate the army or provide unique enough roles, although they intend to.
I'm looking at Eris right now: Stingers were fun because of their dash and nuke. Dervish, the witch doctor kind of thing, seemed like a decent supportive unit, but he didn't actually do much more than increase effectiveness of other units.
Well, so how is that different from SC2? THe difference is that the Dervish slightly boosts stats and little more, but the tanks and the medivacs have very noticeable presences in the battles.
Let me make this example: suppose that the T2 units were invisible, and it looked like marines/stingers were just coming at eachother.
In Atlas's case, if the dervishes were just sort of dancing, invisible, I probably wouldnt' notice until the battle ended and it seemed like his units were outdamaging mine. In the case of SC2, I very much feel the presence of the tanks, even if I dont see them, because of the fucking ahnnialation of my marines with the explosions. I could feel the medivacs as well when I see enemy marines popping up around the map, catching up to my army, etc.
I didn't mention the apocalyte mucn, mostly because I didn't use him, and it's fair to point out that his ability is basically a seige-tank style explosion.
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:51 AM
So you feel that dervish's ability to ignite buff units, which then increase the damage done by the stingers, is not that noticeable?
Bean Yak - Today at 1:52 AM
on paper, yes, but it doesn't feel that way. If somebody gave me the numbers, I could tell the difference of the units, but in the moment, the 20% attack speed increase doesn't feel fucking awesome.
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:53 AM
It can be if combined with the ability power or attack speed item charms
Let me use grath as an example using your thoughts
T1, the terrapin is a zealot
Melee unit that can also stun, so super noticeable
T2 is the howling commando. Now it would appear that commando doesn't do as much or is as noticeable as a tank or medivac
But it actually I'd a crazy good unit. It is the only unit that can hit air units (besides grath of course)
And, with its ability, it can force air units onto the ground, where then the terrapins van attack
T3 is the rhino, who can charge into a fleeing army and stun aoe
Super noticeable if then followed up by the terrapins coming in to stun the units again
And gives the enemy something to attack (large rhino) while terrapins take down the enrmy(edited)
I do think, however, for a new player who does not really see all of that and how the units work with each other, that there is a sense of wanting more of an impact
Its more like this: in SC2, each unit holds its own, and benefits from other units; in atlas, the units thrive in being used in a chain or sequence
Bean Yak - Today at 2:03 AM
I think I'd want to point out a few things. First, the fact that the synergy is forced makes it feel not so much like synergy anymore, and in this case I'm talking about the Commando's shackle. I guess the troopers can't attack air, so they need commandos to attack those units from what I understand. Unfortunately, that synergy feels forced, where it's not a reward to the player but more of just a factor forced by the game.
Also, the fact that a squad is entirely based around a certain role is a little strange, coming from an RTS standpoint, although I know it's different because this is a MOBA. But, if I were to fight an enemy, say I was grath and they were Vela, it feel strange because my squad is based on defense and CC while she's based on range and damage. Like, everything. It's just awkard to rely on your teammates for harmony, but maybe I just need to feel the teamplay aspect of this game more in PvP.
Comments
Role of Heroes:
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:23 AM
I mean, we ha e had this conversation before about heroes and their impact
With their capturing gems from foundations and building expansions
But what you are saying is that the hero needs a lot more than that + their abilities
Bean Yak - Today at 1:25 AM
Oh, yeah, I guess I'm ignoring that aspect a bit, and that's definitely important, but that aspect just seems natural in the game, and I don't think the hero should be just the replacement for the RTS's traditional worker unit
they're obviously intended to be involved in battle as well
I guess the question is if they should be seen as the powerhouse of the battle, for lack of a better word, or the factor that brings together economy and expansion
right now, it feels like it's somewhere in between, and to be fair the economic side of the game doesn't feel very deep anyway
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:34 AM
I will say this: the hero used to do a lot more than what it does now. But, it did take away, IMO, from the rest of the squad
Bean Yak - Today at 1:35 AM
so they removed functionality from the hero units?
ZeldasCreed (Gloriporter) - Today at 1:36 AM
Not necessarily
See, the hero unit used to build more stuff
But they streamlined it so that your hero does three important things: battle, expand and collect gems
I think of heroes more like leaders than champions, which is why I like where the hero is right now
But, I see how it can be underwhelming to a player expecting more